Adelina Shaidullina: You just returned from a trip to Georgia and Armenia. How did you like it, typography-wise?
Veronika Burian: I would say both places are really interesting, typographically speaking. I stayed in Georgia for three days and have only been to Tbilisi, but it seems that there’s a lot of experimentation with the script, in signage, for example. My impression is that Georgian is quite malleable and flexible, a bit like Arabic: you can very much deform it, without really breaking it.
And then despite the will to experiment, there is also a very strong connection to the script, both in Georgia and Armenia. Both Georgians and Armenians use unique scripts that are only employed in their countries, and therefore, I imagine, the script is a very important part of their cultural identity.
Letter ბ by Baiko Pirtskhalaishvili
Lettering on the cover of the book ცისფერი (Blue). Lettering: Soslan Sanakotti. Design: Manana Arabuli
AS: Did you travel around Armenia?
VB: Yes, we visited several places, for example Gyumri and the Lake Sewan. We were also invited to eat khash, which for me as a vegetarian is a bit too much, but that’s a national dish and the scenery was
We visited many monasteries, such as the Noravank Monastery. Looking at gravestones is always fascinating, and in this case very interesting to see the monolinear style of the Armenian script. I imagine that someone who can read in Armenian can still read them, because the shapes did not change that much. This is also something quite unique, perhaps, if you compare it to Latin that over the centuries developed and changed quite a bit in terms of shapes.
Gravestone in Noravank Monastery. Image: Veronika Burian
This is also something quite unique, perhaps, if you compare it to Latin that over the centuries developed and changed quite a bit in terms of shapes.
Both in Georgia and in Armenia, we had the opportunity to see many manuscripts. In Yerevan at the Matenadaran, where we also had a special tour in their restoration area, looking at how old books are restored. And in Georgia, we could visit the Institute of Manuscripts, getting a very informative tour and special viewing of their unique collection of early-printed books.
Psalter, Apkar Tebir Tokhatetsi, 16th century. Image: Matenadaran
Georgian Hagiography 968. Image: The National Center of Manuscripts in Tbilisi
AS: How do you feel, what’s happening on the Armenian type scene now?
VB: Well, Armenia has a quite special situation due to its history and a large diaspora community abroad. There is the Eastern and the Western kind of attitude towards type design, two different opinions on how certain shapes should look like. We at GRANSHAN were exposed to this particular situation, because the founder of the foundation, Edik Ghabuzyan, is a very strong opponent of what the diaspora is doing. Probably it’s partly out of fear that the essence of Armenian script shapes would be manipulated too much and somehow lose their historical value. But there is also, of course, a younger generation, who feel like they need to break away from certain historic models and bring the script into the modern world and especially the digital world. So, as in quite a few other places, you have the old folks and the young generation, and they are not necessarily understanding each other. However, it’s important that young people bring different perspectives and different views on their script. Obviously, not all experiments are great, but it doesn’t matter. It’s good that there is movement.
AVH Mountain by Arman Harutyunyan. First Prize at GRANSHAN 2024
HAM Hakob by Hakob Malqchyan. Special mention at GRANSHAN 2024
MGHA Meri by Meri Gharibyan. First Prize at GRANSHAN 2024
AS: I’m amazed by how the young generation here in Georgia is now taking over the custom type scene. A very young designer just developed a typeface for one of the largest Georgian banks, for example. While we got back to speaking about Georgian, TypeTogether’s Adelle Sans supports Georgian. How can the author of the original design understand that the author of the Georgian extension made the right design decisions?
Sans Serif for Bank of Georgia by Nikoloz Khipashvili
VB: As with all of our multiscript fonts and multiscript projects, we either have a designer from the region, who is a native of the script, or at least we have a consultant. Georgian and Armenian extensions of Adelle Sans have quite a history. About 14 years ago , we got a commission from a company for several scripts including Armenian and Georgian. Back then, it was José
José
AS: When Gor and Akaki were designing Armenian and Georgian, weren’t you also consulting them as kind of an art director?
VB: Of course, we had sessions and we talked a lot. If there was something that appeared strange to me and José, or didn’t feel like having the same intention as in Latin, then we discussed it. Sometimes Akaki and Gor agreed, sometimes not, and we respected their opinions and expertise.
Adelle Sans multiscript
AS: You have an education in industrial design, does it help you when designing typefaces?
VB: Perhaps it helped me at the beginning, but I think it’s more about the approach. It’s not so much about creating a nice curve, but about having a systematic or pragmatic mindset, thinking of the typeface as a system. In that sense, it may have helped me subconsciously.
Ronnia by Veronika Burian and José Scaglione in the identity of Trnava Poster Triennial Slovakia 2012
AS: You launched TypeTogether in 2006, how has the international type design scene changed since then?
VB: A lot! First of all, there are way more people in the industry now. And there are way more people who are not just occasionally creating display fonts, but trying to make a living of it.
Also type design is not limited to the Latin script or Europe and the US anymore. I mean, there is much more awareness about typography and type design. The idea of creating new shapes for the local script really exploded over the last 10 years, I would say. Probably, it’s because of the younger generation joining the industry, economic situations in certain countries getting better, and, of course, the technology improving. 20 years ago, it was not really possible to get a well executed digital Arabic font. I mean, it was very difficult. Now this is much easier, the same for Korean or Thai.
Bree Thai by José Scaglione, Panuwat Usakulwattana, Veronika Burian
Some regions, like Thailand, only began to fully recognize the cultural significance and rich history of their script about 10 to 15 years ago. They’ve realised what they can do with their script to break away from Latin’s hegemony. That’s definitely a very good development because why should India or any other region for that matter not have the same variety of visual expression as is possible with the Latin script?
Since I’m from the Czech Republic and José is from Argentina, already in Reading while we studied, we were keen on creating Latin fonts that support a lot of languages and support them well. 20 years ago, in many typefaces coming out of the classic foundries, the diacritics were horrible and unusable. I know that, for example, in the Czech Republic, local designers offered a service to create specific localisations of Western typefaces. Thanks to education, the internet and new knowledge, this situation really changed.
However, just yesterday I was saying to José: We are receiving so many applications from type designers who want to work with us. I think it’s not a very good sign for the industry because it just means that there are too many graduates for the industry to absorb. You can surely try to make it on your own, but it’s tougher these days. And it’s tricky in some
Chaco by Rubén Fontana. TypeTogether’s latest release
AS: You mentioned that you receive too many applications. I was talking to my mom the other day, telling her about all the type design courses, and she said: Oh, now I get why we need so many new typefaces, because all the graduating type designers need to be employed!
VB: It’s true, I had a similar thought today. All these schools produce type designers who then become teachers, it’s not that healthy. Obviously, you can’t forbid anyone’s interest and it is a fascinating area of design, but there will be a tipping point.
AS: Don’t you feel like now some foundries have more people in PR than in type design, because to sell a typeface we need to make reels, which we need to design, then animate and then post at a specific time.
VB: It’s true in a way. At TypeTogether we have a good balance between engineering, type design, and the graphics teams, but it is indeed much more work these days to get seen, to get heard. This has to do with the masses of fonts being out there and the way the algorithms of social media platforms work, of course too.
Ten years ago, you’d just create a few nice pictures and put them out there. Now there’s a reel here, some motion there, and sometimes I wonder if it really helps. I’m not so sure anymore if the balance is right between all the effort, money spent on production, and the actual results. For this and other reasons, we’re trying to focus more on securing funding for research projects related
Aneto by Veronika Burian, José Scaglione, Roxane Gataud, Azza Alameddine
AS: Since you mentioned research projects, let’s talk about the Primarium Primarium is an educational effort by TypeTogether to document different models of handwriting that are taught to primary school students around the world project. What was the most unexpected insight you gained while working on it?
VB: We interviewed many teachers, and among primary school teachers especially, there’s a strong unwillingness to change or improve. While it was somewhat expected, it still surprised me. Another surprise was the widespread disinterest in handwriting, both across countries and among teachers.
And also I was surprised about the rather archaic and overly complicated shapes of some models out there, still being taught. It is no wonder that primary school children have difficulties learning cursive writing being offered unsuitable models. In many many countries there are barely any handwriting guidelines in place.
Some countries create special fonts and conduct research, but that’s an exception. Fortunately, more scientific studies now highlight that teaching handwriting in primary school is a very valuable tool for fostering cognitive growth in young children. It does not have to be connected cursive writing, but simply the fact of moving and holding a pen together with eye coordination and understanding the connection between sound and sign is truly important.
Perhaps, the other thing that was interesting to find out is the colonial connections between models. There are basically three main strings of influence: the English, the French, and the German models that through economics and colonialism spread around the globe, to South America and even Far East Asia.
Pages from Cahier d’écriture (6–8 ans). Méthode Boscher, Belin Editions. 2015. Image: Primarium
Pages from Les méthodes de Magdalena. French Cursive, Retz Editions. 2018. Image: Primarium
AS: Most of the education is now happening on digital devices, so I wonder how people still motivate kids to master their handwriting?
VB: That’s a good question. I think, indeed, what does help is to have a handwriting model that feels more natural for the movements that a small child can do. I was really surprised with the model used in the Czech Republic, it is a model from the 30s that barely changed. It’s very narrow, it’s very slanted. I tried to do it correctly, and it was almost impossible. So I think asking a child to follow difficult and overly ornate shapes is wrong, because they will get frustrated very quickly.
Handwriting model from the Czech Republic, based on Penc 1978 (Normalizované školní písmo, 2007). Image: Primarium
I guess you can also motivate kids through some games and by giving them the feeling of success when they get it right. I imagine there are various educational tricks that primary teachers have, but I do think that the model plays an important role in this too.
AS: I was so shocked that even in Germany alone, there are four handwriting models. Why don’t people from Europe, at least from the European Union, just gather together and create one standard?
VB: Handwriting is such a difficult and tricky area because it’s a cultural asset, an educational tool and a special expression of human personality. There are so many opinions on what is the best. And also all of the models have very strong historical roots connected to a specific region.
And the European Union can’t even agree on a unique tax system. You can’t even buy a car in Germany and bring it to Spain without a lot of problems. So countries just want to keep things under their control, and education is a big part of that.
Vereinfachte Ausgangsschrift (VA). German handwriting model
Lateinische Ausgangsschrift (LA). German handwriting model
Grundschrift. German handwriting model
Schulausgangschrift (SAS). German handwriting model
AS: Don’t you think it makes sense to introduce school
VB: From what I know, at least for Latin script, many places start with simple, usually uppercase
Often, learning to read and write happens simultaneously, and there are different methods. One progressive method starts with simple forms, moving to cursive only after a lot of practice, with certain connections made where they feel natural. So, it’s a gradual progression. At the same time, children read printed letters, learning typography as they read. In some countries, however, they jump straight into fully connected cursive.
Cuadernos de Escritura. Cuban handwriting model
Cuadernos de Escritura. Cuban handwriting model
The overall goal seems to be to help kids develop their own handwriting style, unlike 100 years ago when precision in copying was essential. Now, it’s more about giving a foundation, and children naturally develop their handwriting based on factors like how they hold the pen, whether they’re left- or right-handed, and personal preferences in shapes. For example, I’m left-handed, and I’ve always struggled with handwriting in school.
Handwriting
Playpen Sans by TypeTogether. Based on Primarium research
AS: Let’s move to your other research and industry developing projects, like industry growing projects, which is the Gerhard Unger Scholarship. How do you choose winners?
VB: In the last two years, we’ve become much more rigorous as we’ve been receiving over a hundred applications, a significantly larger number than at the beginning. We have five or six parameters or questions, and the whole team gets involved, not just Jose and me. We split into teams, with each team reviewing about 10 submissions. Otherwise, it would be overwhelming. Our questions include: Is the concept innovative? How does the typeface fit into our library? What’s the drawing quality? What kind of perspective can we see in this font? Is there perhaps a multiscript component? We try to be objective, but one significant factor is certainly how it fits into our library. We also evaluate commercial viability. In the last round, there was a beautiful book face project, but we already have too many similar fonts. We would feel bad for the designer if we couldn’t sell their work.
Winner of the Gerard Unger Scholarship 2024: Dargon family by Anne-Dauphine Borione
Winner of the Gerard Unger Scholarship 2023: Poltik typeface by Patrycja Walczak
Winner of the Gerard Unger Scholarship 2022: Rezak typeface by Anya Danilova
AS: You have a list of questions for the jury at your scholarship. Do other competitions that you have judged have these kinds of lists? Which questions do they contain?
VB: There are always some kind of parameters or guidelines. In recent years, projects that have something unusual or really fancy going on get rewarded. However, they are not the ones that sell. And they are not necessarily the best ones, but they are all eye-catching and perhaps short-lasting as a result. But it can also be a project that is more long-lasting, beautiful, creates an attractive aesthetic, and helps with reading.
There are always some kind of guidelines, not necessarily exact questions, but usually in these juries or competitions, what is considered is some kind of innovative concept and good execution.
Mercurial Type by Svetlana Turkina, TDC Awards 2024 winner
AS: Do the competitions seek innovative concepts from the text typefaces as well?
VB: Unfortunately yes. Certainly not in the same way as from display fonts, of course. Text typefaces have different limitations. So when it comes to judging text faces, I look for the execution level: the kind of sensibility of curves and spacing and how the texture works, how it feels when reading. And then also the intention, because even in text faces, you can have different intentions: Is the typeface for a novel or for poetry? Is it for a newspaper or magazine?
Jt Picolo by Edward Dżułaj, Anna Khorash, Dominika Langosz. Second Prize at GRANSHAN 2024
Garnish by Anagha Narayanan. Second Prize at GRANSHAN 2024
Adapter Georgian by Ana Sanikidze. Grand Prize at GRANSHAN 2024
AS: You once said that networking skills are essential for a type designer, why?
VB: Because, at least for me, type design is a collaborative thing. To be able to sell your work and to get projects, you need to know people. And, in my experience, a lot of things happen because one person knew another and this person collaborated with you, and so on and so forth. It’s not just in type design, it’s true for any sphere.
Nowadays, you can’t expect to just do your work, and wait till somebody will find you. Of course, you don’t necessarily need to be the person who is always on stage. But at least, you should attend events, to be part of the scene, however, not necessarily the type scene. If you want to get your projects out and get work, you need to network on the client’s side.
AS: And you need to stop selling fonts to type designers.
VB: Yeah, they’re not going to buy it. I think I bought three or four fonts in my whole life.
AS: Is networking only about getting a job or is it also needed for getting more hard skills?
VB: Yeah, sure. At conferences you can talk to someone and share your ideas. A conference is a very energising place when you are not afraid of talking to people. I know that such events can feel a little bit scary for people who start off, but the type scene is usually very friendly.
Custom typeface developed by TypeTodether for Sandoll type foundry
AS: You are one of the founding partners of Alphabettes. How did you come up with the idea of the project?
VB: It was almost 10 years ago when there was still a huge gender imbalance in the industry. So a few of us female typographers and researchers thought to get together, even very loosely, and perhaps start a sort of network within that group. It grew out of this desire to be heard more and to give young women a chance to show their work. And also, it was a time when lettering started to become really huge, and many women started doing lettering.
I’m not as involved in Alphabettes anymore just because I don’t have the time. I’ve shifted more towards GRANSHAN over the last five years. At Alphabettes I was running the mentorship programme together with 3 other wonderful women, but even that has become a bit too difficult to handle because more and more people wanted to be part of it.
Alphabettes’ header by Maria Montes
Alphabettes’ header by Frida Medrano
Alphabettes’ header by Sandra Garcia
AS: Do you still feel like there is a gender imbalance in the industry?
VB: I’d say there’s still an imbalance in the industry, like in many other industries. However, there are definitely more female type designers and engineers now, which is great. It’s no longer just a male-dominated area as it was for the last 50 years or so. I haven’t been treated worse because I’m a woman in the type scene. But I know people who have had different experiences.
AS: Recently, we were preparing a release of an industrial sans serif. There was a promotional image of a female body with letters typed on it. We removed it as it was sexist. Do you think there is still a problem with sexism in the type design community?
VB: When I was young, I definitely experienced sexism. As women, we often accepted things as normal that should not have been perceived as such. Society has changed a lot, but I fear we’re stepping back a bit now with the right-wing direction in many parts of the world, which often comes with sexism. It’s also a reaction to the strong #MeToo movement. I hear from young men that they’re often unsure how to behave around women, fearing they might face hate speech. You can’t say all women are good and all men are bad. Things aren’t black and white. But I’m surprised that sexist imagery still happens in type design.
AS: You mentioned that people can actually see the world as black and white. Don’t you feel that now people seek some black and white opinions?
VB: Yes, especially politically. I guess it’s due to the general uncertainty over recent years, be it economic, political, or otherwise. People nowadays crave something clear and secure to grasp onto. This leads to a black and white perception of the world, which is the basis for populism. It generalises a group, throws a whole ethnic or social group into the same pot without differentiation. This is dangerous and the opposite of what we should be doing as human race. We need to recognise the grey shades again. I wish people would think more on different levels and with a wider horizon. That’s why I believe young people in every country, after graduation, should go to another country, try to make a living there, and get exposed to a completely different culture before returning. This experience gives you a whole new appreciation for the world, its people, and diverse habits and cultures.
AS: Do you think this black and white approach also influences design and particularly type design?
VB: I hadn’t quite figured it out yet. However, I definitely see a positive trend